Interview with Justin of Empire Flippers
Mark: I’m really fired up to have Justin on the show. Justin and Joe over at AdsenseFlippers.com – they rebranded recently to EmpireFlippers.com – agreed to come on the show and talk about his success and failures in building niche websites. This guy has built hundreds, if not thousands of niche websites. Their business model is they turn them and flip them, they also offer niche website services over at EmpireFlippers.com.
On top of that, Justin is just super cool. He lives down in the Philippines, knows a ton about outsourcing. This guy is a great guy to have on our show. Without further ado, let’s get into it with Justin…..
I am really excited to be on the phone. It’s Late Night Internet Marketing and it’s getting close to midnight in Dallas, but it’s in the middle of day in the Philippines and I’ve caught Justin from Empire Flippers, he’s been kind enough to come on the show, and we’re going to talk a little niche site action with Justin.
Justin, how’s it going over in the Philippines?
Justin: Good. You’re right, it’s 1:11 PM here, but I know it’s midnight for you. It’s going good. Great to be on the show, thanks for having me.
Mark: I really appreciate you coming on. Late Night Internet Marketing is the brand over here, so we’re all good with midnight, no problem.
You survived the hurricane and it’s all good over there. I think it missed you completely, right?
Justin: Yes. Davao, or Mindanao in general, was okay. There were some really hard hit areas in the middle in the Samar area, and then the Sabo area. Finally the relief efforts are starting to pay off and things are getting somewhat back to normal for some people.
Mark: That’s really good to hear. I know that was devastating in some parts of the Philippines. I’m glad you guys came out unscathed.
I wanted to have you on the show today because you represent a lot of the things that I talk about on the show. A lot of times I get this question about, “Can you really make money on the internet? Is it too late to get started? Can you still make money with niche sites?” I think you’re aware that we’ve been doing some experimenting with Andrew Hansen’s Forever Affiliate stuff, I had an episode about that recently.
I know that you and Joe at Empire Flippers talk a lot about giving away free information. I know you have some service business, but you don’t really make your money first and foremost by teaching internet marketing, you make money doing internet marketing and then you tell people about what you’re doing, so you’re doing exactly the kind of stuff that we’re talking about here. I thought you might be willing to share some of your experiences. I know 2013 was a banner for you guys, right? You’re hard core into six figures and I think you published that you guys broke the $500,000 revenue barrier this year. Is that right?
Justin: Yes. That was really exciting for us. We’re hoping for even more growth in the next year.
We started off kind of like you, we have our day jobs. Our day jobs are running an outsourcing company here in the Philippines. That’s kind of what we started off doing, we outsourced ourselves from a company that we both worked at, we were middle managers, we outsourced ourselves to the Philippines and set up a company that serviced our previous employer. That was how we were making our money.
When they started to cut back on us, we had all these agents and employees that were still on board and we had nothing to do with them, so we started looking for things. We ended up building these small niche sites and started making those profitable.
I think our first month we spent a couple grand and lots of time and we made like $30. We were a little disheartened by that, but it started to kick up four or five months in and we started to make a fair amount of money. We were investing more money into it, we weren’t break even yet. We thought a great way to do that would be to sell some of the sites off, realize that cash up front, and then reinvest it into the business to scale it out and grow it faster and bigger.
So we started selling sites, realizing that profit that we wouldn’t have seen for another 15 – 20 months, realizing it now and reinvesting that to build more and more sites. That’s kind of how we got our start was building out these profitable sites and then selling them off to people.
Mark: Let me hit on one point that you mentioned there, you kind of flew it. It took a minute to get going. It wasn’t like you put up a niche site and three days later you were making money. It sounds like it took you guys a couple of months or the better part of half a year to really get things figured out. Is that accurate?
Justin: That’s right. Probably five months or so until we started to get profitable. I think we were total in around $10,000 of investment, and lots of hours of time, in probably about five months. Then we started to turn the corner a bit when we started realizing that cash and then reinvesting that cash back into the business.
It definitely wasn’t immediate. We started our blog, which at the time was AdsenseFlippers.com, and we started just talking about what we were doing. We didn’t care because this wasn’t our main business, we still had our outsourcing company paying the bills and our day jobs, so to speak, so this was just kind of a fun project for us. We figured “I don’t care, we’ll just tell everyone exactly what we’re doing it, how we’re doing it, and hopefully they get some value out of it.”
It was that not caring about it and not being so uptight about hiding our secrets, I think, that really resonated with people. They were like, “Wow, these guys are doing it, they’re not selling me information about it and they’re giving it all to me for free.” That’s different than what people are used to.
Mark: I think it also changes the equation a little bit when you’re not in the situation where you’re having to pay your own light bill with the profits from the stuff that you’re doing as well, because you’re not highly motivated to extract money from readers.
Justin: Yes. I think that’s a weakness that a lot of people in internet marketing fall into or they’re stuck with. They’re like, “I have to have this pay for my rent,” or whatever. So they end up short-sighted in their monetization strategy. They just got their podcast or their YouTube channel going and they try to start pushing products throughout, they think that’s the way the game is played. I think if you can hold off, if you can provide more value and be less salesy, people are going to dig that better today.
Mark: I agree. You and I have so much in common, that’s the same way that I roll. I have a day job that I like very much, so I do this because this it’s fun, and I get to talk to people like you, which is really cool.
You talked about how you guys started out building niche sites. I remember back during the Adsense Flippers days when you would list those sites for sale you were kind of running a mini version of Flippa where you would sell these sites, and you guys were cranking them out. Can you describe what this typical niche site looked like for you guys? What was the anatomy of a niche site back in that timeframe for you guys?
Every piece in our process was broken down into keyword research, so we had people looking for keywords. Joe and I would pick the keywords we thought were winners based on our criteria. We’d then hand that over to the site setup team and they would get WordPress on it and everything. Then the content management team would take over and add the content. So we basically set up a human assembly line type process for building out these niche sites and we were building a lot of them with our team in place.
Mark: And you were counting on organic traffic for these sites, I guess. What were you doing to get rankings back in that time? What was the timeframe here, was this four years ago probably?
Justin: Not that long ago. It seems that long ago, but this is probably 2010. December 2010 was when we got started, so 2011 into 2012 we were building out these small niche sites pretty hardcore.
We were also doing some link building. We started off with forum profiles and stuff, just some kind of not great links. Then we used a company called Build My Rank, and we found a ton of success with that. Unfortunately, they got crushed along with some of the sites that we had building links with Build My Rank got crushed as well. We took a huge hit with link building.
One of our main sites, our outsourcing company we had built some links to as well, and that got crushed too. That was a pretty painful experience. Shortly after that we decided to dump all link building. We said we’re targeting these small niche keywords that are profitable, but slightly so. We’re talking $8 a month, $15 a month, $20 a month winners, those are winners for us. We weren’t going after really hardcore stuff like “lawyers in Los Angeles” or anything, nothing crazy like that, no really difficult stuff.
These small sites were able to rank on their own, so we didn’t have to build some of the links that we would if we were going after more aggressive niches so we just stopped it all together. We noticed our sites weren’t ranking as well, but overall they were earning enough because they were still coming in through long tail key phrases, we were still getting ranked in images and that kind of thing.
Cutting out the link building, I think, cost us a bit, but it was totally worth it because it makes the sites a lot less risky.
Mark: This strategy revolved around, at the time, mostly monetization with Adsense?
Justin: Yes. We were building out Adsense sites specifically. I know that some of the people that were buying our sites were then turning them into affiliate sites or Amazon sites, for example, if they were product based. But, yes, we were just building them out with Adsense. It was the easiest thing for us to do with our process. Instead of having to do full on detailed product reviews and that kind of thing, it was more just content based and that content was able to get us ranked and earning.
Mark: So fast forward to today. You grew that business and it has changed a little bit over time, I’m sure. You’re still building sites and you’re still flipping them, is that right?
Justin: Yes. Earlier in 2013, in March I think, we changed our branding. We went from Adsense Flippers to Empire Flippers. The reason for that was we started realizing that we’ve talked about all we can with niche Adsense sites, that was about it.
I think a lot of people that were trying to recreate our type of business were missing the bigger picture. They were thinking, “I can just build small niche sites and then sell them and have a business.” So we actually did a podcast episode called Niche Sites Are Not a Business where we kind of documented what we’re really doing, the real business behind where we’re taking this.
We started getting a lot of requests from people that wanted access to our people for keyword research or for content and we kept denying them, because it was all internal people and process. We kept getting those requests and we kept putting them off, then finally we were like, “Maybe that’s not a good idea. If our customers are giving us feedback and saying this is what they want, maybe we should find a way to deliver that.”
So with the launch of Empire Flippers we opened up each of our modular process based pieces and allowed people to order, for example, keyword research, or content, or site setup. We also started to allow other people to sell their sites with us on our marketplace, so it was no longer just our sites that we were selling, we were now allowing other people to sell their sites.
In 2013 we really crushed it with $3,000 – $20,000 site sales, we had a lot of those listed and did really well. I think in 2014 we’ll be looking more to the $10,000 – $100,000 area. I think that will be a big opportunity for us in terms of brokering. You have sites like Flippa that don’t do that well. I think they do starter sites really well and then there are some really high end brokers like Quicklite Brokerage and Flipping Enterprise that do the $100,000 – $200,000+ really well, but there seems like a real gap in the $10,000 – $100,000 site space and that’s what we’re really going to go after.
Mark: Are you still building sites on your own with your own machine for flipping or have you totally gone over to providing services and the site brokerage business?
Justin: We’re still building our own sites, small five page sites. Just recently in the last couple of months we started building out 50 page sites.
Joe, my business partner, is running a test using expired domains based on Jon Haver’s process on AuthorityWebsiteIncome.com. We’ve been testing doing the expired domain stuff. We don’t have the results in on that, so it will probably be February or March before we have a good idea on whether that’s profitable or more profitable than the niche sites. If not, then we’ll just continue doing the five page site stuff.
We did an authority site test maybe a year and a half ago, and it failed miserably. I tried two sites and I built links with BMR and some other probably not so good things, there was an expired domain use from a broker that may have been tainted, and it just failed horribly, so we were a bit gunshy about it. We’re going back to that now to see if we can make it more profitable than the five page sites. So if we’re spending $500 to create the site, can we get up to $100 a month, and can we do that within a few months, three or four months, and that would be a good winner for us.
Mark: One of the things that makes me nervous about expired domains is it’s hard for me to get good visibility on what the actual backlink profile is and whether or not the site has ever been manually reviewed by Google or slapped in some way. It’s very hard to get visibility to that data. Have you guys got some thinking about what criteria there are for buying expired domains?
Justin: This is more Joe’s area, but I can speak to it briefly. I know he looks at SEOMoz, I know he looks at Majestic SEO, and looks at the backlink profile. I think he tries to take sites that don’t look like they were spammy type sites beforehand. How exactly he does that, I’m not really sure but he has a process for that. I know he has talked to Jon quite about it and they’ve been working together the last couple of months.
Mark: If 95% of the links are from Russian adult sites, that’s probably a leading indicator that you shouldn’t buy it.
Justin: Yes. We’ve also been not using expired domains, but just picking up domains that have expired on Godaddy we’ve sometimes built sites on domains that had some sketchy link profiles. It doesn’t happen that often, but every once in awhile we’ll get one and be like, “Oh, wow.” We thought we were buying it fresh and clean and it wasn’t. That happens.
Mark: We’ve all done that, don’t feel bad.
From the perspective of people that are listening to this podcast, it looks like you and Joe had this massive machine set up, outsourcers, a formula, and multiple product lines with experience in business in the Philippines. Somebody who is listening to this podcast, maybe they’re just wanting to try and go down the niche site road, they’re trying to figure out what to do in internet marketing, how to get started, whether or not it still makes sense to start and if you can start with a handful of sites. What do you say to those people who come to you and say, “I really admire what you guys are doing, but you’re at step 47 and I’m down here at step one,” what do you say to those guys?
Justin: It’s funny you mention this, Mark. I saw someone mention something about us online awhile back and they said, “Guys like Empire Flippers it seems like they’ve got it all figured out and they’ve got all this stuff going on.” I’m thinking to myself that Joe and I really are just a couple of donkeys. We get our team here in Davao together and we have dinner, it’s not this crazy amazing team making millions of dollars, we’re still hustling. I think we’re trying to up our game and we’re doing a pretty good job of that over the last six months. We’re doing our best, but we’re still trying to break through ourselves.
But for someone just starting out, we did a podcast episode breaking down the advantages of disadvantages of three different ways to build sites. One of them would be small niche sites very similar to what we’re doing, five or 10 page sites, and we talk about the advantages and disadvantages. There’s the middle range, which is more the Spencer from NichePursuits.com approach; he does a lot of Amazon stuff right now, but he also does Adsense, we’re talking more like 50 page sites. Then you have the Pat Flynn approach with sites like Security Guard Training and the Food Trucker site where it’s hardcore, podcast and branding, reaching out to people and potential customers in your niche and interviewing them.
All three have their merits and there are some downsides too, but it’s really going to depend on where you see yourself. Where do you want to head? I don’t recommend Pat’s approach for your first site, I think that might be a little aggressive, and if it fails it may turn you off from the idea completely. I definitely recommend starting out with something like our approach or Spencer’s where you’re building smaller sites and testing the waters.
You’re going to screw up. The first couple sites you build are just going to be screwed up. You’re going to do horrible keyword research, you’re going to go after niches that you shouldn’t have. That’s why I think building smaller sites that can get you a return quicker, even if it’s not wildly profitable or successful, just to get a few dollars coming in where you’re like, “Okay, I see how this works,” and then you can pick the direction you want.
If you want to build out 100 of those small sites, do that. If you want to build out 40 sites closer to Spencer’s process, do that. If you want to build out three or four sites like Pat, then do that. But at least now you’ll have the fundamentals, the keyword research, site setup, content strategies that you need to do any of those three approaches long term. Does that make sense?
Mark: That makes total sense. That’s the easy question. By the way, I completely agree with your thinking on this idea that you can go very thin and broad, you can have this nice middle ground where you have something that’s really a good resource but isn’t off the hook, and then you can go off the hook like Pat does with Security Guard Training – and all of those are valid and have their place.
You and I talked a little bit about this over email, you know that recently on my show I’ve been talking with people and about people who give this a try and they fail. They come out and they buy a good product, sometimes it’s a product that I’ve recommended, and they try, they build these sites, and they’re not successful.
I know that you’re touching a lot of people with this same kind of message that this can be done, and I know you see a success rate out there that’s less than probably you would like to see. I’ve done surveys that suggest the success rate for this kind of stuff is lower than it should be, and I’ve done follow up on affiliate product sales where I’ve gone back to the people that I sold affiliate products and asked them what their experience was and they didn’t make money.
So my question to you is what do you think about that? What do you think the failure rate is for the people that you touch with your show and your website? And why?
Justin: First off, kudos to you for reaching out to people and trying to get an understanding of how well they’re doing so that you can know whether or not to recommend that product in the future. I know as an affiliate marketer there are so many that don’t do that at all, so the fact that you’re doing that is interesting.
I think the failure is awfully high across the board. I think it’s high for us, I think it’s probably even higher for others, but it’s high either way. Well-intentioned people do this, but they have the idea or it looks like there may be a blueprint for success, like “follow this process and it will work,” and there’s just nothing like that, it doesn’t exist. So anyone selling you a blueprint, I think people get sucked into that and think, “I can make this work for me.”
And I think the people that are selling that or even giving it away for free like we are, they’re still well-intentioned in that. They say, “Look, it did work for me.” Maybe we had skills that you didn’t. Maybe we’re able to build teams and process better than you, so yours suck and don’t do as well. You can’t just say “If I follow this blueprint I’ll be successful.”
I think what you should try and do is take the bits that did work and basically create your own process out of it. I’ve found that the keyword research did work for me, but I need a new traffic strategy, so you go after that. I think it’s false to say “this is the way that’s going to work for everyone.” People do that because it did work for them, but it doesn’t mean that everyone will get the same value.
Also, I think a lot of people approach online businesses differently than they would approach an offline business. They want to spend $0. I’m not talking about info courses or anything like that, they just want to invest no money and have a profitable company within two or three months. I think that’s just unrealistic for any type of business. Online just happens to be one way to market your business, but it doesn’t have to be online. Your business should stand as a legitimate business whether it is online or offline and use different channels to get there.
I think that’s part of the problem is that it’s being sold as a blueprint or it’s being bought up thinking it’s a blueprint and without any investment in time or money required, and that’s just almost always not the case. All the situations I know of people being successful that wasn’t the case.
Mark: It’s interesting to hear you say this, because I don’t know how many niche sites you guys have built – do you have an estimate?
Justin: A couple thousand. Maybe 2,500 – 3,000 sites total.
Mark: What I’m hearing you say is that you have a toolkit of stuff that works, at least most of the time, but even after thousands of niche sites and all that experience and all that data, you’re saying that even you guys don’t have this foolproof blueprint that works absolutely every time no matter what.
Justin: Yes. We absolutely don’t. First off, we have a failure rate on our sites. We’ve tried to fix that, we’ve tried to improve our keyword research. I think our changes have kept us ahead of Google updates. We’ve gotten hit before by Google updates, but it has helped to keep us current, but it hasn’t gotten significantly better. We still have sites that fail and we just don’t know why.
Whenever someone is talking about building out niche sites, especially using our process, we say five sites or eight sites isn’t enough; you need to build 20 or 25 to get a good look on it. We definitely still fail. The truth is that there is no guarantee that following our process will necessarily work for you. You may spend too much on your outsourcing, you may have a VA that runs off on you, there’s any number of failure points that could happen.
I think the best thing to do is to find things that do work and hopefully that will work for you. There’s no guarantee that it’s going to work for you. I know that’s not a very good selling point, “Hey, check out our stuff because it may not work for you,” but that’s really the truth. I think anyone who tells you differently and says, “This is absolutely going to work for you, it has worked for 90% of the people that have done it,” you just have to question that, it just doesn’t ring true for me and the people that I know that have been successful.
Mark: It’s real. That’s what this show tries to be about is keeping things real. I’m the first guy to get frustrated by these crazy sales letter that promise instant success. One of the things that it goes to, and it’s one of the things that I wanted to get your take on, is one of the key differences that I see between people that are successful in internet marketing, whatever flavor it is that they’re in, and people that have less success is this idea of personal responsibility.
People taking responsibility for their own stuff, taking responsibility for the outcomes that they get, taking responsibility for their failures. I know that’s a topic of interest to you. Do you have some comment about how important that is or what you’ve seen there?
Justin: It’s interesting because I think a lot of the sharks in internet marketing use that to blame the people that the sold the blueprint to and they say, “Oh, you didn’t build it out right,” or “you didn’t follow it correctly,” or “you didn’t stick with it long enough.” You’re right, there is personal responsibility and you hear from a lot of people that did fail where they said, “I followed this person and they led me astray,” or “I’ve been listening to them and I haven’t made any money.” That’s obviously a weak position to take, “I followed them and I didn’t make any money,” well following people doesn’t make you money.
Justin: I don’t know, it’s a tough thing. On one hand you have the sharks blaming them, but then there is some blame that goes on the person that’s trying it out and isn’t finding success. So I’m not really sure how you balance that.
I think telling people how it really is and that it may not work for you – and there are probably some people that just shouldn’t be doing it, right? I think it can work for lots of people, but there are some people, if you’ve been in internet marketing and diligently working at it for two or three years and you haven’t made any money, you spent way more than you’ve made, and you’ve tried all these different things, and not blaming anyone but you just can’t see how it works, maybe you just shouldn’t have a business, maybe you should just keep a job. There’s nothing wrong with that. This is not for everybody, I think.
Mark: I absolutely agree. It’s funny, I just listened to Pat Flynn’s interview with Gary Vaynerchuck and one of the things that stuck with me from that interview was Gary said when you do an interview or you have a piece of content you should find the quotable quote and share that on social media out of that interview. The quotable quote out of this interview, Justin, is “Following people does not make you money.” That is the most awesome thing I’ve ever heard anybody say. You have to take responsibility for your own stuff, very good.
Justin: That’s absolutely true and I think not enough people do and they look for other people to blame. I think successful people that I know, to a fault, look for things in themselves to blame. Even when some third party thing does cause them problems they say, “Ugh, what did I screw up to allow that to happen to me?” Like if I just took on whatever and our business took a 30% hit, I don’t blame whatever caused that hit, I look at how I didn’t set it up properly to avoid that hit. I think that’s a critical difference that entrepreneurs make versus wannabe entrepreneurs.
Mark: And it’s good business. I’m involved in electronics manufacturing at my day job and when something screws up we look at what we could have done to prevent it, what we can do to keep it from ever happening again, and we put that in our processes. That’s just good business and that’s taking responsibility for your stuff, that’s what you have to do.
Justin: Mark, when are you going to quit your job? What’s the deal with that? When are you going to quit the job and go full time?
Mark: That’s a really good question. I would never want my employer to think I didn’t absolutely love my job, which I do. It’s funny because people at my workplace listen to this show.
Justin: I’m beating you up in front of your coworkers and bosses. It’s interesting, because I know that you love to do what you’re doing, but I know you love your job too. It’s one of those weird dichotomies. Think how much more you could give to it.
Mark: It’s a struggle. I don’t know, but I promise you when that day comes the world will know, it will not be a secret.
Justin: I know you, and anyone else considering quitting their job or going full time online should do the same thing, give plenty of notice. In fact, help to find, hire, and train your replacement. Leave it great for employer and coworkers, you may do business with them again in the future. You may be able to come back to your bosses and work out a deal, they may be a great customer or partner with you in the future.
You never know how that’s going to work out, so you definitely don’t want to burn any bridges, especially when you’re leaving your job. Unless you work at Walmart or KFC or something, you’re not going to be partners there. You know what I mean, for most small to medium size businesses there may be opportunity there in the future that you just don’t see today.
Mark: In my particular case it’s complicated because I’ve been with my employer almost 25 years and they’re just awesome, I love to go there every day because the people are great. It’s a very complicated thing.
I dig the late night internet marketing aspect of this. Besides, if I did this all day long during the daylight, I’d have to rebrand because it wouldn’t be late night internet marketing anymore.
Justin: That’s a good point. Rebranding is kind of a bear, so I wouldn’t envy you on that.
Mark: I’ve been there and done it, so I know. Justin, I appreciate your time here. I have two more simple questions for you.
One is what’s your advice to the new internet marketer who is just stumbling onto the show, trying to get their bearings, they want to build something that lasts?
After that, I want you to tell people a little bit more about how they can reach out to you and Joe and hook into your stuff, because I think your stuff is really good and I think my listeners would benefit from the stuff that you guys are putting out there.
Justin: For someone just starting out, I do this a bit, I beat up paid courses somewhat and that’s not exactly true, there are some paid courses out there that I think do have some value. But starting off there are so many sketchy paid courses that you might want to avoid it. There’s plenty of free information out there that I think can help you.
Checking out NichePursuits.com, SmartPassiveIncome.com, TropicalMBA.com, those are all great resources that I read regularly. You can check out our guide Building a Niche Site Empire, which will walk you through step by step exactly how we build out these niche sites.
Whether you think our process will work for you, whether you dig that approach or not, you’re definitely going to learn the fundamentals that come with keyword research, with setting up your site on WordPress, figuring out WordPress, how to order content, all of these things that you’re going to need no matter what type of websites or online presence you’re going to build, so there’s value in it and it’s free.
Mark: I really appreciate your time. I think I mentioned this to you before, sometime in 2014 I’m coming to the Philippines, maybe actually in the first quarter. When that happens, I’m going to check you out and maybe we can throw down a beer or whatever cold drink we can find.
Justin: Done. San Miguel Lights on ice by the beach; ready to do it, I’ll see you out there.
Mark: All right, I’ll be in touch. Thank you.
Justin: Thanks, Mark.
Mark: Take care.
Wrapping Things Up…
That wraps it up for today. Really enjoyed having Justin on the show, he’s awesome. Lots of good insights from him. Remember, these sites don’t always work, but clearly he’s getting enough of them to work to make a business – and a great business it is. Very excited to hear from him.
I can’t wait to talk to you guys in the coming weeks. As you know, I am heavily involved in Rankings Institute with Andrew Hansen and I’m building some sites along with the people in the course. For those of you that were with me in Forever Affiliate, they are my Forever Affiliate sites, so I’ve finally got the focus back on that. I’ve niched down to three of those sites.
One of the sites is the site that I told you about for the Niche Site Duel, the pedometer related site related to the FitBit. Another site is in the pet niche, very interesting site, you’ll laugh when you find out what it is some day.
The third site I’m not quite sure exactly what that’s going to be yet, but I think it’s going to be a medical related site, an ailment cure related site, a real legitimate thing where people have a certain kind of ailment and they go searching online for a cure. There’s a Clickbank product out there that I really believe in for this particular ailment, so I’m going to try and promote that.
There you go, three sites in the health niche, the pet niche, and the fitness niche. I’ll be talking to you about those. The Rankings Institute, as the name implies, is about rankings. That’s what these sites need, they’ve never really generated any revenue, although I’ve had content on them for awhile. We’re going to see if we can get them to rank and I’ll be reporting those results here on the Late Night Internet Marketing Podcast.